We are eBay fans, and have been so for years. We've bought all sorts of stuff on eBay, and have sold a few things too. And we've always been very careful to provide accurate feedback, and have expected accurate feedback in return.
But a few months ago we had a less than perfect buying experience. We bought a product that arrived defective (after a several week delay). The seller (after weeks of nagging) agreed to take the item back and replace it, and eventually he did in fact do so. As the seller did indeed deliver in the end, we opted not to give him negative feedback, but he definitely did not deserve positive feedback either. We left neutral feedback which we felt was honest and appropriate. And the seller responded by leaving entirely undeserved negative feedback about us. Since then, we've been sure to leave our buyer feedback only after the seller has left feedback for us.
But we have another item that we need to leave feedback on, and we intend to leave neutral feedback for this one, too. The problem is that the seller refuses to leave feedback for us until we've left our feedback for him. And we don't want to leave feedback for him until he has left feedback for us.
Apparently, many eBay users are running in to the same issue. Feedback used to be an important way to help determine which buyers and sellers to do business with. But as feedback has become less honest and more retaliatory, the system is fast becoming useless. High positive feedback no longer means that the individual has only high positive feedback, it also means that he or she may have lots of negative feedback that was never left for fear of retaliatory negative feedback posting. The result is that when transactions are good for all parties, lots of positive feedback is posted. But when the transaction is less than good, no feedback is left. Sellers (especially those with scores in the hundreds or thousands) don't care if the feedback is not left, and buyers (especially those with lower scores) can't risk being the recipients of negative feedback.
In other words, feedback scores mean next to nothing nowadays, and that is hurting buyers, sellers, and the whole eBay experience.
eBay needs to fix this by enforcing feedback rules:
1) Feedback should be mandatory, and must have a time limit (perhaps 30 days). After that time limit, feedback should no longer be allowed, and the system should automatically generate negative feedback for non-compliance.
2) All of the feedback for any given transaction should remain private until all parties have provided feedback (or have exceeded the time limit). Parties should be informed that feedback has been left, but they should not be able to see the details until they have left their own feedback.
These changes will help level the playing field, and will help make eBay feedback scores relevant once again.
very valid points and something I have believed for a very long time. As most people, I have had an Ebay account for a very long time. I have managed to keep a sparkling reputation despite a few "less than desirable" experiences. I have always believed you should be able to provide feedback without the fear of retaliation from the other party. I do not believe anyone should be able to see the feedback before feedback from both parties are submitted.
I do disagree with one thing you recommend. "After that time limit, feedback should no longer be allowed, and the system should automatically generate negative feedback for non-compliance." Negative feedback on Ebay is a very bad thing. I think if you forgot to provide feedback you should not get a negative mark, because the purpose of feedback is not to show that you adhere to compliance rules but rather how good of a buyer or seller you really are. This could be better managed by a "no feedback" option showing how many transactions the user has not given feedback on so other parties doing business with that person can see just how much they have decided not to provide feedback.
I had a bad experience like this on my second attempt to buy somthing on eBay. I was trying to buy some Adobe software which seller claimed was genuine. It seems that the seller realised that I was an Adobe Partner and withdrew the sale and gave me negative feedback saying I had refused to pay.
Subsequent attempts to buy anything on eBay were refused by several sellers so i gave up.
I never got eBay to investigate and decided it was all too dangerous to participate.
Unless there is a situation, most feedback from sellers is macroed anyway.
The most recent, or second most recent issue of Scientific American Mind contains an article about the psychology of eBay and is written by some of the people working with eBay to revamp their feeedback system. One of the key improvements will be that sellers will be ineligible to receive feedback until they've left feedback for their buyers. So that people like this can't blackmail buyers into positive feedback. Apart from providing hope for jaded eBay users, this is an interesting look into the human concept of fairness in business.
Check out the article here
http://www.sciammind.com/article.cfm?articleID=1D9...
I'm in a situation now where I'd like to leave negative feedback but the seller is clearly an immature goof that I'd get retaliatory negative and it's just not worth it for me to warn other buyers that the guy tried to charge me $17 bucks to ship a CD I won for 31 cents. (Actual shipping: $1.61)
Your system is in fact biased towards buyers. The problem is the same with the suggestion by others of the seller going first based on payment alone because buyers leave negative feedback for reasons that have nothing to do with the seller, e.g., buyer didn't read the details and item doesn't fit, or a simple mixup which the seller would happily fix as he would any normal website order, but, instead of emailing, the buyer leaves a negative. (We then leave a negative about not emailing to fix a small issue.) So, sellers are forced to not give feedback until they see what they get, otherwise do without.
I think your system would result in a lot of pissy negatives, because it costs you nothing at all to be nasty under your system. One rude email - leave a negative because maybe that guy will anyway and what can he do once they're revealed? The present system of retaliation perhaps keeps people more in line. The egregiously bad buyers/sellers get negatives anyway. No system is perfect that I can see, every one will entail new strategies.
As for shipping, it's fairly well known that many sellers WAY overcharge for shipping. They price items well below cost and then jake up the shipping charges to compensate. Never, ever buy on Ebay without knowing shipping charges up front. Also, the new feedback "star" system at least allows you to leave positive feedback for a seller while still rating them low if they overcharge on shipping.
For those that want a quick way to review the feedback on a seller, be sure to check out http://toolhaus.org/.
As a note to volume sellers not worried about not receiving feedback, I'd like to add that someone w/ 1000's of feedbacks doesn't worry about negative feedback either since its affect is negligible.
Its really nothing tricky, just do not show feedback until both have posted - then the differences can be worked out as they already are - this is a 20 minute fix - at tops.
That's exactly what you have now, a system that works itself out, just in a different way, as you say yourself below.
>>I'm sure sellers on there occasionally get feedback they don't deserve.
Exactly as buyers do, except more so. Generally the buyer is just paying; a buyer though will post a negative because the post office didn't deliver on time.
>>But I always look for sellers that at least have 95% positives or more...that still allows for a fair amount of unreasonable complaints but shows that the seller overall does a good job.
That's exactly what I said above. So the system does work.
>>As for shipping, it's fairly well known that many sellers WAY overcharge for shipping.
Well, I don't and I've never experienced that but it's pretty obvious you don't buy anything anywhere without knowing the cost beforehand.
No system is "just", they are all merely standards.
We have a few thousand and we still do. Ebay will limit your sales if you have a string of negatives and complaints in a period no matter what your overall rating. We had a threat of that in a period where one idiot left many negatives after a big bulk purchase because his country charged him duty. And of course tried to screw us on the payal (which we won).
Worry about negatives is precisely why big sellers don't solicit more feedback.
Now it is down to the seller to deliver the goods as described.
but then what motivation does the seller have to deliver the goods?
As I've mentioned, but no one has commented, why not simply hide the feedback from everyone until both have submitted it?
Each party would get a message that the other has provided feedback and those comments are now public. The feedback process would then resume as it does now.
Adding to my additional spin on this, you could add a cap of 30 or 45 days after which either party that has not provided feedback is reminded to do so. From there, a new label "unresponsive" would be tagged to that user fro that transaction instead of negative, positive, or neutral. Of course, each user will be able to edit their feedback during the time it is not visible (or pending the other to reply).
Thanks And Regards From Poland
As a buyer, I find it amazing that I have literally spent hundreds of dollars on a single item and not one thank you by email or in the box, no feedback, nothing. When I have had a good experience and do leave feedback, what I get back is an auto-generated positive feedback which I guess is better than nothing. I have gotten to the point that I just don't bother leaving feedback for sellers who don't possess the common courtesy to thank me for spending money with them.
Imagine going to the mall, paying your money and having a cashier not thank you for shopping with them until you say "thank you so much for taking my money and for the lovely merchandise". Uh...oh yeah, this is already happening. We live in an age of bad manners.
I described several instances where the buyer pays and THEN causes a problem, so paying is only one part of it. Do you want to only judge the seller by shipping (not post office problems, not quality, nothing)?
>>As I've mentioned, but no one has commented, why not simply hide the feedback from everyone until both have submitted it?
I explained above why that is no better.
>>ebay is biased towards the seller big time
Everything you described has nothing to do with feedback at all. Any seller on ebay or elsewhere can just take your money and not ship. Pay with a cc or paypal and then cancel. (And any buyer can just cancel payment and steal items after received too!)
I appreciate your feedback but I'm not sure where you are going with your reply to my statements. Everything I've suggested has to do with feedback and how to improve that function - which (btw) was the initial point of Ben's post (as I understood his rant). Your point to the system being more advantageous to the seller is not being debated (at least by me). In fact if you read my post more closely you will see that I even imply that implementing my suggestion will not prevent the seller from screwing anyone over (coinciding with your perspective) but simply ensures the feedback is able to reflect that accurately.
Again, I never questioned whether or not your statement is true, [ebay is biased towards the seller big time], I only offered a solution to the feedback application being able to be more accurately report true feelings of the parties involved without that risking the outcome of the transaction.
That's why I specifically commented on why I don't think it is an improvement.
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/new-feedback-poli...
http://answercenter.ebay.com/thread.jspa?threadID=...
http://answercenter.ebay.com/thread.jspa?threadID=...
http://forums.ebay.com/db1/thread.jspa?threadID=10...
http://forums.ebay.com/db1/thread.jspa?threadID=10...
These are just a few examples.....
http://www.automotive-repair-manual.net/
http://www.oyunambari.com
http://www.seegeorgiarealestate.com